tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post8549764948581989246..comments2024-03-27T15:44:43.564-08:00Comments on What Do I Know?: Discussing Ethics Part II - Keeping Politicians CleanStevehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10498066938213558757noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-83966684558269334692009-08-02T00:28:01.071-08:002009-08-02T00:28:01.071-08:00Tomandlou, Thanks for the clarification. I didn&#...Tomandlou, Thanks for the clarification. I didn't say free drinks were less important. I said they were 'less overt.' I was saying that the buying of free meals to curry favors was not as obvious and direct as how the Mexican drug cartels get policeman to do their bidding. (They kill them if they don't cooperate.) I agree with you that lobbyists giving legislators free meals sets up relationships where the legislators 'owe' the lobbyists. So I don't think we disagree there. Though many of these practices are legal.<br /><br />I still am not sure why you say they are all equal. If you tell your wife or girlfriend that she looks great but she doesn't, some would say that was a lie, even if your intent was to make her feel good. <br /><br />If a politician tells a voter a lie to make the voter feel good (and vote for him) then I think that is a much bigger violation. But we don't have to agree. There is a branch of philosophy that argues that you should never violate any of the standards you live by. But others argue that sometimes one value conflicts with another. Would you lie, for instance, to save a person's life? (The Nazis come to your door and you are hiding Jews for example.)<br /><br />"do you agree that in over 200 years of practice we should be able to recognize Faulty ethics and respond ethically." <br /><br />How about after 2000 years of practice? The Greeks, Confucius (5000 years), Christ, Buddha, Mohammad, etc.all discussed ethics. But it isn't as black and white as many would like.<br /><br /> Some things are clearly unethical and 99.99% of people would agree. But other things are so clear. (Forcible rape.) Some less clear. (In some date rape situations, it may seem to the man that the woman was a willing partner.) Some used to be ok, but now they aren't. (Women used to be like property to their husbands and were expected to be obedient them.)<br /><br />The conflict between normal friendly relationships and professional relationships is not understood by many people. Business people who get into government and bring normal business ethics with them often do not understand that things they did in business are not acceptable in government. <br /><br />I'm not excusing any of these things. But I think if we simply condemn and do not try to understand, we won't make any headway in changing things. <br /><br />When I did ethics workshops for government employees, I would get them to give me ethical dilemmas they had faced. I'd do this before we met. In class, participants would discuss them. It was amazing how differently people reacted to the same stories. Some would say it was a clear violation. Others thought it was perfectly ok. <br /><br />On the extremes - the very wrong and the very right - most people agree. But in the middle the clarity you want just doesn't exist. <br /><br />How bad is driving 66mph in a 65 mph zone? 67? 68? 69? 70? ...85? 86?... When does it get to be a problem?Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10498066938213558757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-53259125263838656672009-08-01T16:29:07.521-08:002009-08-01T16:29:07.521-08:00I just saw your pedigree! I have a feeling I'm...I just saw your pedigree! I have a feeling I'm way outclassed.Just the same I stick to my assessment but I am impressed! I would hope that you are in the forefront fighting for the right kind of reform.And thanks for being gentle.Tomtomandlouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14359822472600072395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-30207366793500778842009-08-01T14:32:28.794-08:002009-08-01T14:32:28.794-08:00Steve With all due respect! To try to answer! I re...Steve With all due respect! To try to answer! I refer to "Free dinners Drinks etc" You seem to be talking about clearly, things that are or should be violations.Or are you saying tho wrong they are overlooked?My perception is that they don't matter much because they are too small ?Am I wrong?All ethics violations are equal! A mistake on a financial disclosure should not be a problem.I 'm sure if it begins to be a problem then it deserves a second look !On the other hand a$40,000 mistake deserves an investigation.I do not agree that any violation is less significant than another.The deaths I'm refering to are those that are Medicaid related.If SP did'nt know of them I would be astounded, she knew every enemy Etc,Etc.She was aware of the Doctor who did,nt agree with her abortion platform and had her fired.Lets put it this way if she did'nt know someone should be on the carpet.That looks unlikely.One more thing do you agree that in over 200 years of practice we should be able to recognize Faulty ethics and respond ethically.tomandlouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14359822472600072395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-4346934437528725502009-08-01T10:10:03.861-08:002009-08-01T10:10:03.861-08:00tomandlou, Thanks for joining the discussion here...tomandlou, Thanks for joining the discussion here. Could you clarify for me what you are referring to when I say I 'distinguished between blatant and small ethics violations'?<br /><br />And as I pointed out in a comment above, level of education isn't an issue here, it's what you have to say. I hinted at education in the post only to give some context to how I got my understanding of these topics. Generally I don't mention that so people focus on the content not on me.<br /><br />One could make a strong argument that all ethical violations are equal. One could also make the opposing argument convincingly. In either case you would have to discuss lots of details about conditions and distinctions and impacts. <br /><br />Personally, I do think one missed $100 donation on a financial disclosure form is less significant than regularly lying to and hiding information from the public. Or taking a $40,000 campaign contribution in return for an legislative earmark. <br /><br />Perhaps you can explain why you think those are of equal weight.<br /><br />I'm not sure which people you are referring to who have died because of legislative inaction. I'm not denying the possibility that Alaska legislators could have but didn't pass laws that would have saved lives, but that's probably true of legislators in all states. <br /><br />What are you suggesting that is more significant in Alaska than elsewhere? <br /><br />Again, thanks for leaving your thoughts here.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10498066938213558757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-88196780382023989272009-08-01T09:24:59.007-08:002009-08-01T09:24:59.007-08:00I'm disturbed that you make a distinction betw...I'm disturbed that you make a distinction between a blatent or small ethics violation!My level of education may not meet yours, but it is obvious one small infraction is as bad as a large one.Your ex Gov. was allowed to commit as many as she chose and look at the lives of the Alaskan citizens that were affected!The tragedy is the aftermath and whats to come because of it. People have died and suffered because of the inaction of your Legislators.tomandlouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14359822472600072395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-49803963979626494252009-07-30T23:13:34.258-08:002009-07-30T23:13:34.258-08:00Steve, perhaps my fellow reader could enrol on uni...Steve, perhaps my fellow reader could enrol on university as I have. I'm in my 50s, and no one has told me not to yet. It's good to study again; heck, maybe I will awaken my inherent smarts! (all smiles)Jacob Dugan-Brausehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06287631724339961459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-48048522218764385352009-07-30T09:47:56.372-08:002009-07-30T09:47:56.372-08:00Dear Schlub (and I hope you take that as an ironic...Dear Schlub (and I hope you take that as an ironic and respectful nickname, sort of like Little John in Robin Hood, and much better than Anonymous),<br /><br />First, schooling doesn't make you wise. At best it gives you skills that enable you to do something better than you could before. The best schools help students unlock their inherent smarts and use them well. <br /><br />Second, are you scratching your head because it doesn't make sense to you? Or because it leads you to think Don Young more corrupt than Sarah Palin? Or you were thinking that already and you think what I wrote to suggests Palin is worse than Young?<br /><br />Third, we have allegations about Young which do indicate that his level of unethical behavior is probably much higher than Palin's. So on that point I would agree with you. I'm not sure why you think I might not agree. Though I would also say that Young's contributions to Alaska are also much higher than Palin's.<br /><br />Perhaps you might think that because I have spent more time here on Palin than on Young. I suspect that is the case for me and other bloggers for a couple of reasons. First, the FBI and the Department of Justice (DOJ) are investigating Young, and they have far more access to information than bloggers do. It may be wishful thinking, but I suspect we've all just decided the FBI and DOJ would get the goods on Young and we'd focus on other things. Second, while Palin has held back some official records, she's also said enough publicly to be an easy target for anyone who knows the rules of logic. <br /><br />So, you are probably right that we have been distracted by the easy target and not looked at the significant target. (Though, given people's national hopes for Palin, I think Alaskan bloggers had a special obligation to watch her closely.) But I also don't like the idea of us going after targets. We should be trying to bring out information, not shoot people down. <br /><br />I would also note that I'm not responsible for what other bloggers write (and you didn't imply that). The most active AK bloggers that I follow, who have gone after Palin, have been careful to identify rumors as rumors and they have not written about rumors once they knew they were false. Some rumors they've never even mentioned. There are some who still have questions about the birth of Trig. Until those unanswered questions are addressed, I suspect that they will keep asking them. It does seem that Palin made some bizarre decisions there - but the more we know about Palin, perhaps bizarre is more probable than logical would be.<br /><br />Finally, a bachelors degree or PhD doesn't guarantee wisdom or even common sense. Lack of those degrees doesn't mean someone is dumb. There are other ways than the university to get smarts, and I'd say you've benefited from those other ways. So don't put yourself down.<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. Keep them coming.Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10498066938213558757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-30897652.post-25280708391874827062009-07-30T05:01:07.850-08:002009-07-30T05:01:07.850-08:00Hearing you on the air and reading your last 2 blo...Hearing you on the air and reading your last 2 blogs has me really scratching my head now.<br /><br />You are no doubt a very wise man Steven, and I mean that sincerely.<br /><br />When I line up the sins of Sarah Palin vs those of say.....Don Young......I find in my mind anyway, and I'm no PhD scholar, that Don Young is by far the more corrupt politician of the two.<br /><br />I'm not a Palin fan by any stretch of the imagination, in fact I find the work of some of your fellow AK Bloggers to be far more offensive (publishing photos of children on a political advocay blog with a w/o thier parents permissions, spreading known to be false rumors, etc) than Mrs. Palin's politics.<br /><br />But hey, I'm just some schlub who doesn't even have a Bachelor's degree, so I guess it's safe to just go ahead and dismiss my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com